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On Tolkien, and on books and movies

Jin Shei Cover from sgreer
I just tripped over Pat Rothfuss's take on the upcoming "Hobbit" movie - here - go read, I'll wait.

Back?... Okay. Here's the thing. He nailed it.

He gives the LoTR movies themselves far too much credit, I think, but then I may be more of an outlier than he is. The truth of it was that I went to see the first movie of the Jackson Lord of the RIngs trilogy WANTING to love it. It was a no-contest thing - I had read the books I don't want to tell you how many times, I knew them well, I was devoted to them. They were what they were, a product of their time and a product of their creator, and a very specific kind of book. No, there weren't any strong female characters in it at the protagonist level - Arwen was a love-interest-in-deep-background for most of this story (because she didn't have much of a role in this particular part of the story at all; Eowyn might have been Lady Ninja of Rohan with a major plot point to hang on her belt, but she was still just a PART of the whole tale; Galadriel was most definitely NOT the CGI witch that Jackson saw fit to make her in the movie version. Perhaps this will take a few gold stars off my feminist letter of credit, as it were, but honestly - I didn't expect women to ride to the rescue here. I didn't NEED them to. I was reading a certain kind of book for its own sake and that was fine as far as it went. My first serious teeth grinding in the movies literally came when they parked Arwen on Glorfindel's horse and made her a Pretty Little Warrior Princess (complete with flowing robes and matching glittering jewellery). By the time they got to Lothlorien and Jackson's version of Galadriel I was fit to be tied.

The movies were - well - big screen extravaganzas. That battle on the plains below Minas Tirith could have been dealt with in half the time - if the director could get past the gleeful little-boy hand-clapping approach of "oh, look, mayhem, battle, blood, swords, all that - and oliphaunts to boot!" (honestly, he must have been channeling Samwise on that last point). And because of what Jackson shoved IN, lots of things that should have been in were left OUT, and the entire thing is diminished by it. I thought tacking on the Grey Havens ending WITHOUT the Scouring of the Shire interlude to give it depth was just pure hard melodrama ("oh, look, we can wring some emotional hand wringing from the end of it - it's always good when an audience leaves the theatre in tears, no?") If they wanted the full impact of the Tolkien experience, the Scouring of the Shire was something that could not, should not, have been left on the cutting room floor. Best to leave it with the ending that the silly little fairy tale they actually filmed really deserved - have Aragorn marry Arwen, and then say "and they lived happily ever after" and leave it at that. But they couldn't, not without getting the fans riled. So they "did" the real ending. Badly.

In fact there was (for all the gleeful oliphaunts) entirely too much emo in those movies to begin with (MY Aragorn would never skulk around in the shadows staring at the Blade That Was Broken and wringing his hands going "I am not worthy". Sorry, but no. This was a man fully aware of who and what he was, who had already sacrificed much on that altar, and was willing to sacrifice more. Not the new-agey angsty fellow with the hand-wringing. Not so much. Not at all.)

And look you, I am not saying that I wanted the books up there verbatim with every Holy Word in place. I look at Tom Bombadil and I imagine that section of the book on the big screen, and I cringe and go hide under the bed, to be quite honest - yes, I know all about his provenance and his pedigree but Bombadil (at least in his ability to annoy) is something almost like Jar Jar Binks on steroids. No, I understand perfectly that a movie made from a book is, and has to be, an ADAPTATION of the book and not the simple rendering of the book's dialogue in live action. I understand that. PERFECTLY.

But here's the thing. The periphery of such an adaptation is something that is arguable and nebulous and all kinds of things can squeak past in the shadows. But what Jackson did was SCREW WITH THE FUNDAMENTALS. He took seminal lines of dialogue from where they made sense, and arbitrarily introduced them to a point in the tale where they were merely bathos. And he does not get the two arguably bedrock concepts that inform Tolkien's book.

The first is - well - perhaps it is simply the fact that he is an egalitarian New Zealander (but even so, technically he is still a subject of a Queen...) but he does not get the burden of royalty that Tolkien placed on his reigning kings - he does not get that a great King is fully self aware and cognisant of his self and his position and accepts whatever he needs to do in order to deserve the honour of wearing his crown. In the movies, I simply did not "get" the right-wise born King of Gondor thing that TOlkien invested his Aragorn with. That was gone. The movie Aragorn - aside from being arguably eye candy with a languid stare and lanky locks of a drummer of a rock band - does not really gain his stature through his lineage and his sacrifice and his self-knowledge and his acceptance that he is what he is and he will either achieve the purpose of his life or die trying. He is... diminished. I did not WANT him diminished. This was not a modern story with a powerless constitutional monarch. This was an old-fashioned KING. We never got that. Even the king of the Rohirrim was initially presented as a demented old man - and he was not, he was NOT, the whole scene of him magcially regaining his faculties was so wrong... Oh, just stop me now. It was all too, too much.

The second thing was the Elves. JACKSON DOES NOT GET THE ELVES AT ALL. WHen she isn't being the CGI Wicked Witch of the West, Galadriel appears to be a stray hippie from the streets of San Francisco. And Elrond comes across rather more like a frustrated and fairly pompous CEO than he ever did as a leader of Elvenkind. (Maybe it was just that Half-Elven thing. Tainted with the lesser clay of humanity, don'tcha know.) The whole Council of Elrond that resulted in Frodo going off to his quest was just... less than energising. I was far more ready to join the crusades during a performance of "Les Miz" on stage than I ever was to leap to a quest of this magnitude, and let's face it, the stakes were a tad higher, probably...)

Well, Jackson didn't get the Dwarves much, either. That whole Dwarf-tossing thing made me cringe.

And let me put it this way. You don't make a cinematic release of a movie, and then put out a "director's cut" on DVD - and the scenes that were taken out for the cinematic release went a long way to making the whole entire THING begin to coalesce into something that might, if you turned a blind eye to this or that, start to make some sort of Tolkienian sense. If you cannot make a movie of a book like this in a manner which will work in a cinematic release, well, why do it? Yes, they were huge hits. Yes, they were lauded to the skies. But while they may have been passable fantasy adventure movies, the one thing they were NOT, in my mind, was Lord of the Rings. And it pains me to think that these will be the definitive movies left in the ring, as it were, after all the dust has settled - simply because they were so damned expensive to make (and thus they MUST be good, no?) and because it has been repeated enough times that they are The! Ultimate! that any future contender will simply throw in the towel before even beginning the box(office) match.

I've seen the trailers for the Hobbit movie. At least the Dwarves appear to have a tad more dignity about them, in this incarnation (and trust me, they were VERY dignified. Mention dwarf-tossing to Thorin Oakenshield and you're likely to exit the scene with an axe in your brainpan.) I don't know, I just don't know. This is a less complex book than LoTR - but it doesn't mean that it's less subtle, and I have a horrible fear of all its lighter moments being turned into comic relief... and that Jackson is going to be up to his old tricks, rewriting the material according to his own fiat, taking out stuff that is needful in order to stuff in stuff of his own that is NOT or rearranging things in a way that HE thinks things ought to work. It failed for me in the LoTR movies, and I can't see it succeeding that greatly in this one. Pray GOD he doesn't stick in an arbitrary princess, like the trailer of the very first version of the movie did (what? You didn't go read Pat Rothfuss's blog? Go do it and watch that first video. COme on, just do it. I'll wait until you wash your eyes out, afterwards...)I mean, it's FANTASY, it's got to have a PRETTY PRINCESS, doesn't it?

THis is a subject on which I tend to wax fairly frantic. On one memorable occasion the programming powers that be at one convention saw fit to stick me on a panel discussing the Tolkien vs. Jackson versions of LoTR - and to make me moderate it, to boot. I introduced myself then as "your immoderator". Yes, Tolkien's books fail the Bechdel test. Yes, I do like to read about strong heroines in books which do not fail said test. But Tolkien I read because of other things, and not because of feisty female protags.And sticking a woman character into a place where she doesn't fit just because you want to have a female on the screen is almost as oogy as deliberately eschewing such a character at all - at least the latter is considerably more genuine. And yes, the intrusion of Arwen into the movie LoTR just so that the men could have Liv Ullman eye candy to look at just plain TICKED ME OFF. You really need to ask yourself who you are making these movies FOR, if you're the movie maker. If you want to make a movie of a beloved book, sticking an arbitrary thing like this in there is going to alienate the very fan base of that book who might be your target demographic. It may not be nearly enough to enrapture any other kind of demographic. Therein lies the danger. Just recently I was reading an article about how DIsney's movie "John Carter" has been deemed a flop before it even hits the theatre screens - the movie poster is a generic red background with a hint of a crescent and a human silhouette and the words "John Carter" on it. Those who grew up on the original books would LOVE to go and see "John Carter of Mars" - but this movie poster disenfranchises them from the outset, and they are already wary, thinking that if the studio was this leery of the "mars" word what could they possibly expect of such a film? And for those who have no clue who John Carter was and who wander into this movie expecting something vaguely contemporary, well, aren't THEY going to be surprised. If you make pulp movies, go for the pulp, for God's sake. Go for your demographic. Or don't do it at all.

I'm not at all sure I'd have the guts to go and see any movie adaptation of my books. Just imagining a situation like this is enough to make my stomach churn.

Hollywood and the movie industry and its "there there dear we know best" attitudes. I'm not saying that there's never been a good movie adaptation, ever, but all the same... there's a lot to answer for out there.

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( 15 comments — Leave a comment )
[info]robling_t wrote:
Feb. 23rd, 2012 04:17 am (UTC)
So much word on "John Carter" -- who did they think they were going to draw in with that title that was worth sacrificing the built-in draw of adding the "of Mars"? I mean, I actually went, "hm, John Carter, that name sounds kind of familiar... Wait, is this 'A PRINCESS OF MARS' John Carter we're talking about...?" Completely mistook their audience, methinks.
[info]thebluerose wrote:
Feb. 23rd, 2012 04:19 am (UTC)
Wow thats a lot of emotion :) And to a certain extent I agree with you. But I think the fact is that they DID pick their demographic and they played to it perfectly.

The demographic they picked wasn't you, a hardcore Tolkien fan, or me, an "I read it and liked it mostly but I prefer the more modern stuff" fan. Their demographic was everyone else who hadn't been touched by Tolkien, and the movies were framed to make a huge story, with many characters and more detail than you could shake a stick at, and make it approachable to the average viewer.

Lets face it, there are far more of them than there are of us, and I think as a visual representation of what it 'could' look like, it suceeded brilliantly. From the number of Oscars and the huge box office numbers I think it could be judged a sucess.

Yes it butchered the story subtlties, but how could you portray an actor like Aragorn with all the history and depth and detail you got in the book without having loads and loads of "as you know Bob" dialogue to fill in the blanks - for the hard core fans you can leave it out because they have read the books and know, but for everyone else you cant, it would be awful (and about a week long)

You can put dwarf tossing down to irreverent kiwi humour :)

Finally I think one of the good things about the LOTR movies (and also the HP movies) is that they encouraged interest in the books, and led people back to them, to read the original story. I would be interested in the stats on that, around how many people struggled with them, because they are not easy books to read (I hatd the Tom Bombadil parts and always skip them). But how many people had their eyes opened to fantasy and went on to read more?


[info]birdsedge wrote:
Feb. 23rd, 2012 10:53 am (UTC)
I'm with thebluerose on this. I probably am the demographic they aimed the movies at and I loved them. I'm hugely looking forward to Yhe Hobbit. I'm sorry that LOTR disappointed you, but it's obvious that you already have your perfect LOTR movie playing in your head every time you re-read the books, and no one - NO ONE - is ever going to be able to make that movie, probably not even you given unlimited resources and a cast of thousands. It's like Radio. Tne pictures are always better on radio, because they are your personal ideal.

For most of us Jackson's adaptation of LOTR was a masterpiece and yes, some of us did know where it differed from the written word, but we forgave it those changes because at last - AT LAST - someone took fantasy seriously.

I'm not trying to change your mind. I know where you're coming from, but please forgive the rest of us our weaknesses.
:-)
[info]sartorias wrote:
Feb. 23rd, 2012 02:00 pm (UTC)
For most of us Jackson's adaptation of LOTR was a masterpiece and yes, some of us did know where it differed from the written word, but we forgave it those changes because at last - AT LAST - someone took fantasy seriously.

[info]birdsedge beat me to it!
[info]mcjulie wrote:
Feb. 23rd, 2012 04:03 pm (UTC)
My husband was one of those people who never really took to the books, but he loved the movies. I was really happy that the movies had finally made the story something we could share.

I remember when we saw the midnight Cinerama showing of Fellowship, I was with a group of people who were all completely stoked by its awesomeness. But when the house lights came up there was a guy sitting in the same section who was practically in tears. "The cartoon was better!" he declared, in a tone of voice that suggested the movie had destroyed a beloved childhood memory.

The Bakshi cartoon certainly has its good points -- the script by Peter S. Beagle packs an amazing amount of the story into a very short running time. I prefer its more grizzled take on Aragorn. Plus, I think it actually did a better job on the segment from the Ringwraith attack at Bree through the stabbing at Weathertop. It was more frightening and tensely paced.

Does that mean the movie overall was better? Not in my opinion. The Bakshi film (and I blame Bakshi's direction entirely for this) treats Samwise as a kind of humorous sidekick character, as if he really is as dumb and inconsequential as other people often think he is. Jackson recognized that Sam is the hero of the piece and his movies reflect that.

Which is my overall point, I think. Whether you like an adaptation or not will have a lot to do with how you see the book.
[info]anghara wrote:
Feb. 23rd, 2012 08:23 pm (UTC)
Actually, Jackson's treatment of Sam is one of the few places that I can give him full credit for things - he did a good job there. Sam was a pivotal part of that plot, even if he never was the gung-ho hero storming the gates, and Jackson recognised that - and kudos.

But that was one piece of the whole...
[info]anghara wrote:
Feb. 23rd, 2012 09:17 pm (UTC)
"But how many people had their eyes opened to fantasy and went on to read more?"

The same thing was said about Harry Potter which was lauded by a bunch of sources as the "gateway" to reading by the generation of kids who happened to be around to be caught by it. But there have been just as many indications that the kids who read Harry Potter *read harry Potter*, and stopped there. So yes, there is a certain value in being a gateway to certain activity, or a certain genre - but that is not something you should or you can count on happening as a matter of course. If it got a few people to start reading, fantastic. But if it got a few of those people to pick up the book and then toss it aside as not being as "glitzy" as the movies, I count that as a notch on the negative side of the ledger, myself...
[info]thebluerose wrote:
Feb. 25th, 2012 04:50 am (UTC)
I have waited a few days to ponder this discussion and view your answers. I agree with birdsedge in that the movie *you* want will never be made, and I suspect you know that, which is why you are so negative towards the ones that were made.

And you really are negative, no one can say anything good about the movie or the ongoing effect it may have had. I would have thought as an author that the concept of ANY new people being introduced to the wider SF/Fantasy genre wouldn't be a bad thing at all, even accounting for the ones that only read the books the movies were based on.

New readers are new income. one way or another if you are an author. I bet if the HP movies had never been made JKR would have been just a comfortably well off woman.
[info]anghara wrote:
Feb. 25th, 2012 10:13 pm (UTC)
Oh yes, I do believe that the HP movies were a huge factor in the HP Potterpalooza juggernaut thing that happened. But here's the thing - I only read books 1,2 and 3 in the series. I've seen all the movies because I found them moderately entertaining, but I have no opinion on how closely they DID, or SHOULD HAVE, followed the written-in-the-books material - or on whether or not any omissions or additions enhanced them or detracted from them. Did anyone pick up the books after seeing the movies? very probably. But in real terms it was probably more something of a feedback loop where one read one of the books/saw the movie/got visually fired up/picked up the book, or even perhaps the NEXT book...

In terms of adapting a beloved book to anothe rmedium, I might proffer another example, namely, "Les Miserables". I promise you, the first time I went to see the musical version I was very very wary indeed - there seemed to be things in that book that frankly defied staging. BUT THEY DID IT. No, not with using dialogue verbatim from the book (although there were a few lines I recognised directly). They even took severe liberties with the characters themselves - in the original novel the Thenardier family were far from being the comic relief they are in the show. And yet the original intent of the book, the sensibility of it, the pathos, the drama - ALL of that was preserved, and then some. No, they didn't make the movie or the musical or any other media adaptation I would have made, or could even have conceived myself. But what they did was hearstoppingly brilliant. The best I can ever say about the Jackson version of LoTR is that they were visually splendiferous (and that was New Zealand's doing, not Jackson's) reflections of Tolkien's work as seen in a distorting funhouse mirror. I do respect the right of others to disagree. But I, myself, will never accept them as anything other than "Tolkienist" (in the same manner as "Christianist" has ben applied to, um, a certain kind of person with a central belief in the Holy Trinity...)
[info]anghara wrote:
Feb. 23rd, 2012 09:20 pm (UTC)
"You can put dwarf tossing down to irreverent kiwi humour"

I could. I could indeed. And when is humour ever reverent, really, when we get down to the wire?

But it has *its place*. And once again, I reiterate, Gimli was an easy target - he was bullyable because he was a relative nobody in the scheme of things. Like I said, try that with Thorin Oakenshield and see how far the "irreverent humour" defense takes you. I am more than certain that the butts of jokes find those jokes less than funny, themselves. And the wince-worthyness of this one is simply that it was so absolutely unneccessary...
[info]heleninwales wrote:
Feb. 24th, 2012 01:54 pm (UTC)
I agree. There are some people for whom the LoTR is the book of their heart and while I love it and have read it many times, to me it remains simply a story. I thought the movies worked well and as to drawing in new readers, I know it worked in my son's case. I'd tried to interest him in fantasy and read The Hobbit to him when he was small, but he'd never shown any interest in LoTR until he saw the film, whereupon he devoured the books and declared them superior to the film! :)

I'm sure he wasn't the only one of a new generation who, until they saw it on the big screen, had seen LoTR as something fuddy duddy and old fashioned that mum read.
[info]zornhau wrote:
Feb. 23rd, 2012 09:09 am (UTC)
....look, mayhem, battle, blood, swords, all that - and oliphaunts to boot!
I rather liked the films in their own right.

I hope that John Carter at least manages that.
[info]bunsen_h wrote:
Feb. 23rd, 2012 03:13 pm (UTC)
Elsewhere, there is a heated discussion about the misogyny of Rothfuss's analogy. And while I understand their point, to some extent... there's a part of me that's saying "Yeah. That's exactly right." about his metaphor.

My first "difficult" moment of the film came in the first few seconds, when the voice-over told us that Sauron had crafted all the Rings, including the Three. And Arwen holding a sword to Aragorn's throat, to show how bad-ass a Warrior Princess she was... you don't do that, any more than you point a loaded gun at someone. Not if you really know how to handle the weapon.

Edited at 2012-02-23 03:13 pm (UTC)
[info]anghara wrote:
Feb. 23rd, 2012 08:15 pm (UTC)
"Elsewhere, there is a heated discussion about the misogyny of Rothfuss's analogy."

Well, feel free to pass on to those folks the updated non-misgynistic variant. Let's say you had this relationship with a boy in college - and he was a poet, and a dreamer, and he was going to change the world one day and he offered you the moon and you believed that he would deliver it for you if you just said the word. The two of you went for long walks on deserted beaches at sunset and held hands and then sat on the sand and watched the stars come out - and sometimes he'd have his guitar with him and he'd play sad sweet songs for you until you wept from a strange and unearthly happiness to be there, to be you, to be next to him.

Many years later you happen to notice a plutocrat sitting surroudned by fawning folks angling for favours at his hand - and the hand in question is pudgy and pasty and white and there's a pretentious diamond pinky ring on the left pinky finger. You used to hold that hand - and now nothing about it is familiar, and you don't even want to think about what became of those long narrow brown feet whose bare toes you once watched digging into wet sand at the ocean's edge. His high cheekbones are gone, vanished into round cheeks flowing into the promise of a formidable double chin. He has a loud laugh now, and he wears a Rolex, and if you looked into his wallet you'd probably find a platinum credit card with no credit limit. He owns three homes, an apartment in New York, a vacation home in Vail, and an escape pod in the Cayman Islands. The only stars he is interested in these days are the ones who walk red carpets - preferably those with long tanned legs and fake boobs who teeter on gilded high heels and dresses slit to the thigh and hair fluffed with "product", and enough mascara to scare a raccoon into the primeval woods never to return. As for him, he doesn't walk anywhere at all if he has a choice these days - he had a limo to pick him up and drop him off, and all he has to do is give a command (not even directions) and the idea of walking a beach at sunset with a girl who is rich only in dreams and hopes and faith would make him laugh.

He is still in there somewhere, presumably - the youth you loved, the youth you remembered - but buried so deep that not even he can find that old self. Sometimes he glimpses it, and it scares him, and he demands that the limo take him to an expensive club immediately so that he can drown the memory in 12-year-old single malt and bask in the adoration of those around him - the adoration of the man he is today, not the one he was long ago, not the one he might have had the potential to become.

I'm not entirely sure that this is any less "misogynistic" - and certainly there are other attributes that could be levelled at it. But there you go. If they don't like Pat's version, it's an alternative.
[info]lenora_rose wrote:
Feb. 24th, 2012 05:00 am (UTC)
I rather thought that using Arwen in Glorfindel's place was a good idea. Not for feminist reasons, but for cinematic compression reasons. Films often work better if you compress things that were really done by handsful of people into a couple of characters, tightening the cast into a few more easily identifiable figures.

Then Jackson ruined it by having her, not Frodo, defy the Ringwraiths at the Ford, which suited neither character at all and was for me the first real hint where Jackson didn't Get Tolkien..

I love the movies (in spite of the dwarf-abuse), but they aren't definitive and they aren't Tolkien. They are excellent Tolkien-derived quest fantasy.
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